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Furious. Outraged. Our police are
I just got back from the police department. I got a police woman who didn’t want to handle the situation at all and as soon as I said it involved a real estate agency said it wasn’t in the police jurisdiction and that I should go file a suit with the courts. Another guy was more sympathetic and told her she should at least call the real estate people and tell them to stop harrassing me. So she calls, she talks to Shmuli or whatever his name is and then says, “yes, she should come and change that check.” Because he claimed on the phone to her that all they want is for me to come and change the name on the check I gave them, the check for 2,050 shekels.
But on the phone they have been telling me I have to issue them another check as well because of the other check I wrote out to them. Their agent told me to make that check out to “the owner” Bettler Jakob (who Yael Forti now claims she has no knowledge of and that the check has nothing to do with them) and so they want the “other” 2050 shekels they say they haven’t been paid.
The policewoman said that if they showed me the apartment, even if it is against the law for them to do it and they weren’t hired by the owners (we don’t prosecute for that, she tells me) I have to pay them whatever they claim they are owed. So they have (and have cashed the Bettler one) checks and a cash payment totaling $950 and the fact they are telling me I must pay even more…too bad for me. And if, after that, they claim I owe them yet more money…too bad, too bad for me. The police won’t do a thing.
About the harrassment? I should take it up in civil court. However, to prevent the average Joe from totally disabling their phone or removing it from the network, the Service Provider puts of drug kind is what xanax on this data called a Master Subsidiary Lock or MSL. The first mobile news service, delivered via SMS, was launched in Finland in 2000. In photo 2 mg xanax of in 2000 it was claimed that recordings of photo 2 mg xanax of conversations made on the day of the Omagh bombing were crucial to the police investigation. The order xanax order can be order xanax order totem custom-decorated to reflect the owner’s personality. [40] Thus, they would not attempt connection to xanax and methodone mixing base stations as during take off and landing. The xanax controlled substance is a can be xanax controlled substance is a totem custom-decorated to reflect the owner’s personality. [33] xanax valium generic drugs study of 13 normal men found that significantly increasing their xanax valium generic drugs use (>6 hours each day for 5 days) caused a marked short-term reduction of sperm quality. 5 standard deviations higher than normal driving (i. Over can on xanax you exercise five years several dozen mobile operators (carriers) have abandoned networks on TDMA and CDMA technologies, switching over to GSM. NMT was xanax take best ways to xanax take best ways to system that enabled international use of the phone, or “roaming” on other networks in other countries.
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| Print article | This entry was posted by Yael on September 26, 2007 at 4:19 pm, and is filed under Israel. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback from your own site. |
(Photo by Dani Machlis)
about 5 years ago
Hm, let me try to make sense of that all. As far as I understand it, you have been conned in a pretty classical manner. But I must say I haven’t quite understood completely what is going on. I especially don’t understand the business with the checks, why they should not be cancelled and what this agency wants you to do with them. It is also not clear to me if you owe them anything and if, how much and what has actually been paid.
Now to the police. The role of the police is different to what most people assume. They are to investigate crimes against society but not necessarily prosecute every wrongdoer in the country. At the bottom of your matter there could be two different victims: you as an individual and society as a whole. You as an individual will not be helped by the police. Your recourse is the civil court system were there are remedies for breach of contract, fraudulent tort, unjust enrichment etc. It is up to the individual victim to file a lawsuit and obtain remedies such as getting the money back.
The job of the police is to investigate if there is a crime against society. There could very well be one in this case, since fraud or larceny are considered a crime in most countries. However, the decision to prosecute that or not is left to the public prosecutor or the police. And given the scarce resources they usually have, in many cases they decline to prosecute or investigate. The victim cannot do anything about that.
Here in the States nowadays there often is a third way, and you might want to look into this if there is something comparable in Israel: so called “consumer fraud” often is investigated and prosecuted by “consumer affairs departments” of big cities or by the Attorney General’s offices of states. Again it is up to their discretion, but they often will prosecute where the regular prosecutor’s office, in the States that is usually called the District Attorney’s office, will not. They also will have different remedies at their disposal, such as revoking the business license of the offending business.
And that would be the fourth way here in the States. Realtors here need to be licensed and such a business practice could lead to revocation of their license. One would have to file a complaint with whatever agency is responsible for issuing their business licenses.
Mind one thing: Of all these different approaches only the first, the civil lawsuit, can normally lead to the victim recovering the money damages she had.
I know that in some European countries there even is a government subsidy available for obtaining legal counsel, may be Israel has something like this, too. If, then it might be good idea to consult an attorney and see if you could file a lawsuit against these people.
Now, as to the harassment, this is very much depending on local laws. Here in the States their behavior probably would be a crime so the police would have to take a report, and one could also possibly obtain a civil legal remedy against them by getting an injunction. I don’t know if this is possible in Israel.
Now, what it comes down to is this: it is often an error to assume that such a problem will be solved just by turning to the police. As far as I understand it, this is rather a problem made for the civil court system. A civil court is the place to sort out the competing claims. The police cannot do that. And it is interesting, in my opinion, that this agency has not yet filed a lawsuit against you, since they claim you owe them money. To me this smacks of them being pretty sure they would lose it.
about 5 years ago
You need to sue them in בית דין לתביעות ×§×˜× ×•×ª. It will take couple of months, but you’ll get your money back. I think this is the only way, you should check with an israeli lawyer.
about 5 years ago
John, this sounds like good advice. Consider your opinions, Yaeli. Perhaps you should take the initiative and file a suit against them. Glad that I am in TEXAS!
about 5 years ago
First you get some male friends who are long on action and short on scruples. Then you get some old socks, and fill the socks with either bb’s, or lead shot, or a couple of rolls of coins, then tie the socks off. Then your male friends go down to the real estate agency, put on stockings over their faces, and beat hell out of whoever is handy in there except not a woman which is considered bad form. It would be good if they could lay hands on the guy who conned you but anyone will do in a pinch. It’s the thought that counts.
Then you call the real estate lady and ask her did she get the downpayment on what you owe? Tell her you’re going to pay the rest , with interest, if you don’t get your damn checks and money back.
It’s cheaper than a lawyer and you’ll feel a lot better , too. If you can’t find any guy friends to handle it, maybe it’s time my brothers and I made that tourist visit to Israel.
about 5 years ago
Frank! You made me laugh so much. It sounds like Deep South-type legal strategies! These people would deserve it; they are scum.
about 5 years ago
Frank ohmyg-d I’m in stitches. Seriously, all I want for these people to do is just crawl back under their rocks but, barring that, hitting them with a few rocks (or socks) doesn’t sound too bad. Oh my.
John, I think they had schemes with backup schemes in line in case one fell through. There was the make a check out to the Bettler Jakob “owner” guy and paying 1k sheks in cash so they could claim I hadn’t paid that part of the amount to them –first I have no proof I gave them cash (no receipt) and second they claim now that they don’t know who this BJ guy is –though he certainly cashed his check. There was the cancel the checks and write out new ones so that they could cash the new ones and then take me to court for the canceled ones (again, things are very different here than in the U.S. as far as this stuff goes –having once written a check out to someone is “proof” that you legitimately owe them that money). And, of course, the initial scam of “showing” me an apartment they weren’t hired to show (the owners advertised it online and it was the owners who actually let me into the apartment) and thus, in theory, shouldn’t be able to charge me a fee for seeing and renting. In theory, because while there is a law against their doing that and against lying to me (the owners hired us, yes, yes) and lying to the owners (oh, I’m just a friend of hers), it is a law the police ignore and won’t prosecute people for doing. Kind of like how if your car gets stolen or your apartment gets broken into, they don’t bother –and will tell you to your face that they aren’t going to bother — looking for the people or the stolen goods. It is like the wild west here before the wild west was tamed.
Lior –yep NC directed me to a pro-bono legal advice thing here and I’m hoping they will call me back before or on Sunday.
about 5 years ago
Ah, now I understand the situation a lot better. The cash deal of course was a classic con, the money is gone and there never will be any proof that you paid it.
However, there are a couple of other things that might deserve consideration. First is to look at what kind of contract between you and them actually was made. The point is here that they might have a legitimate claim if it was them who came up with the apartment. I don’t know how the law in Israel is, but if you would sign a contract (or otherwise enter into it) that merely says “I will pay you for showing me (pointing me towards) an apartment that is for rent” and they actually did that, it would not matter if they were hired by the landlord to find renters or not. Unless that would be explicitly outlawed, they might have a legitimate claim.
What strikes me as strange is that there is supposed to be an irrebuttable presumption that once you write a check to someone you did owe that amount to the recipient. I actually cannot imagine that this correctly reflects the law. It might create a presumption, yes, but I would expect it to be rebuttable, that means that yes, on its face it creates the impression that you owed that amount to that recipient, because you wrote the check, but if you then have valid reasons why in fact you did not owe that amount, you should be able to present that in court and prevail with a claim of restitution. This is basically how things would turn out in American law and as far as I know also in continental European law. May be you should inquire from an attorney if things really are so much different in Israel.
What I still don’t quite understand is why they don’t cash in the other checks you gave them, instead of bugging you to write new ones.
In the matter of the check cashed by Mr. Jacob it might be tricky to trace that money to them, however, the bank should be able to help at least somehow.
As far as I understand it now there has been cash paid, that is probably gone forever. One check has been cashed by an individual who cannot be found and who the realtors claim they don’t know. To get that money back might turn out very tricky or simply too expensive.
Then there are other checks which are now in possession of the real estate brokers but which they haven’t cashed yet. They want you to cancel them and write new ones? That doesn’t make any sense to me. If they would cash the new ones then, their claims would have been paid. How could they cause a problem about the cancelled checks? Probably this is where specific Israeli law comes into play of which I have no clue.
But the whole thing sounds so fishy to me that it might be worth spending a few bucks to consult with an attorney to find out what your legal position really is and if you can go after them for your money.
As to the police, yes, basically this is the way I know from Germany. My bike had been stolen once and my car had been broken into once while I lived there and they told me pretty bluntly that they would not bother to do anything about it in both cases. These kind of crimes are not taken seriously there and that’s why they happen so often. Israel sounds the same.
about 5 years ago
Was there cash paid? I didn’t think so. I believe that the checks have indeed been cashed, correct? Did you sign an agreement—without having an attorney look over the agreement first? What are these people claiming that you owe them money for? How much? This sounds insane to me. I’d get an attorney immediately. You need legal advice and soon–like NOW.
about 5 years ago
Rule one…never make a real estate deal without a lawyer! The reasons are now obvious. I normally don’t stick up for the police but they’re right, this is not a criminal case. Serioiusly, if you were back in the states, do you think a cop anywhere would give this a second look? He’d nod sympathetically as he went for his donut and tell you to get a lawyer. Follow Lior’s advise and maybe you’ll get your money back in a few months.